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Comment from Chris

You're absolutely right when you imagine that you'd invest as little in IE as Microsoft seems to. That's why they get so much criticism. Microsoft is supposed to be in the business of making people's...

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Comment from Jonathan Snook

@Steve Stringer: For me, my laissez faire attitude comes from the context of history. The industry already had efficiency when it only had to deal with one browser that had 95% of the industry. And IE6...

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Comment from Steve Stringer

You make some very good points. But I'm surprised and your position. Not for not being in the hate-Microsoft camp, but for seeming to accept without complaint how unbelievably--and...

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Comment from kiji

Does being the marketleader give you the right or panache to ignore set standards? What if the Toyota or Nissan, who, for explaining our point, we'll say are the undisputed marketleaders, decide to...

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Comment from Yuval Raz

this is particulary a problem where i work - Israel. since IE was the first browser to support right to left coding and visual hebrew, it has taken, and still occupies up to 97% of the market share in...

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Comment from Jeremy

All I know is that with this IE problem (which I think IE is stupid, but not because of CSS) it gives me more job security. If everyone knew how to get around it, then I wouldn't get paid what I do.

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Comment from Olly

"are you saying that because you've paid for the product, it should therefore comply with any and all third party specifications?" Yes, if said product claims to support a standard, then it should...

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Comment from ChadL

@joel: doctypes can aide in legacy support Ever used a faucet where hot was on the right and cold was on the left? Damn frustrating experience isn't it? Much like developing a rich internet application...

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Comment from Zach Blume

Rich has a point

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Comment from joel

The legacy problem is why MS can never (imho) actually produce a good browser. Period. Legacy systems are a developers worse nightmare, and I will have to say, due to the lack of updates to IE over the...

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Comment from Bernhard Welzel

I will never understand why microsoft fails to "fix" the ie (even with 7.x). there is no reason why they can´t make ie all this w3c-css-standard-loving piece of software opera or firefox ist today. as...

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Comment from Ismael

Yes, I had to apply minor fixes to different browsers (Ok, Safari's javascript leaves much to desire), but all fixes where pretty much related, had a clear cause and obey to documented interpretations...

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Comment from Jonathan Snook

Ismael: but you only paint part of the picture. Does it work in Safari and Opera? Did you test and fix issues in all browsers but IE during development and only try to fix IE at the end? Part of...

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Comment from Ismael

I'm shocked! Sure, IE is alright for everyday CSS / Javascript tasks, but I just spent two weeks working in a complex RIA-style interface (Javascript, fixed-positioning, Ajax, you name it). The first...

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Comment from adam

Arguing is what makes the world spin! Nothing like a good argument to brighten up a day. Macs are great, windows suck, firefox is the best, internet explorer is crap LETS ARGUE!

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Comment from J R Mortland III (Bob)

I am never tired of arguing

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Comment from Chet

I once had a teacher mention to me in art school that some of the most skilled craftsmen around, are aware of and excel at working inside the limitations of there choosen medium. Just a thought.

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Comment from Scott

> Nice to have but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it You've never stayed up late into the night to make sure something was working properly in IE the day before its deadline? I thought...

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Comment from Hakan Bilgin

Well said...it has been a long time since I was inpired by others but I like what your writings...thanx. PS: I tried to make comments with IE6/Windows but it didn't work so good. Perhaps you are aware...

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Comment from Ed

Do remember that IE is an integrated part of the operating system ~ shdocvw.dll ~ and not a standalone rendering component. This makes it MUCH harder to amend as an awful lot of legacy applications...

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Comment from Johan

It is like nitpicking in a a haystack.

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Comment from Robert

It's a sad state of affairs. The web could be so much more if MS made IE standards compliant as it would allow developers to produce websites much more quickly and without hacks in order to make them...

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Comment from Peter

Well, you're obviously right that MS doesn't *have* to make IE fully-CSS complaint, but what bothers me is it seems this is well within their grasp - it doesn't seem to be a problem with lack of skill...

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Comment from Armin Besirovic

I'd go along with Ed on the point of IE, though I think it halts evolution. People often tend to "argue" but none "debate" and that's where I think the problem is! The sad truth is that people best...

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Comment from Johan

Arguing but what is the use? IE WIN is hopping along, and we have to ride along. It is a company, and decides itself. Though the law is not really helpful, especially for the little man!

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Comment from Ed

If I was head of IE, I wouldn't fix it. Biggest market share, most of the web is accessible through it, it's the most forgiving browser, it's quick, it's reliable, it can be integrated seamlessly into...

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Comment from Jonathan Snook

joel: well, certainly any product has a level of 'cost' to produce anything within the environment of that product. However, there's really no accurate way to create a measurable cost that would be...

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Comment from joel

A few concepts have been brought up here. #1: IE is not "free" when it is an embedded part of the system. This is on the user side. One should also consider the cost from a developer side to determine...

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Comment from Aaron Martone

Does Microsoft owe us a standards compliant browser? No. (Heck, I don't think they could do it if they want) But it's not the public's responsibility for progressing the web; that responsibility falls...

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Comment from Thomas Messier

I think it would be nice for IE to comply with standards for the simple fact that I think it would make their offering better and more customers happy. The average user wouldn't see the difference (no...

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Comment from Emil

James: That is all people here is telling Jonathan tha answer on his topic "Aren't people tired of arguing?". And as you may have seen, the answer is No! ... haha

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Comment from WB

I guess it is good to have opinions but bad to be opinioniated.

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Comment from James Mathias

What I find intriguing is that no one got the point of this article... lol.

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Comment from acts_as_flinn

flame bate! The problem with your argument seems to me that since IE is included with Windows it isn't really free. It is a part of the operating system that they claim to support. My biggest problem...

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Comment from Jonathan Snook

I seriously don't mind IE6. In IE7, alpha png and fixed positioning were my two biggest desires. I'd still like display:table but I've been able to live without it. Take a look at the CSS for this site...

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Comment from kimblim

Reg: What monopoly are you talking about? The monopoly they "earned" by making software that was either better or easier to use than that of their competitors? It's not like all governments across the...

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Comment from Nate K

I agree with all but the IE points. Unfortunately, many users think IE IS the Internet, and have no idea you can use another browser. So, out of the box, an everyday user doesn't know that they have...

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Comment from Bernie Zimmermann

IE still sucks though, right? ;)

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Comment from Carson McComas

Oh Snook, stop with your fair, rational and well reasoned thoughts, this is the intarweb!

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Comment from Frode Danielsen

Like Emil, I agree with everything but your IE point. I think I'll take a quite opposite "extreme" POV to make my case then: the WWW is not about making money, it is not a commercial product/service....

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Comment from Jonathan Snook

rich: I suppose if you looked at that way, there is a cost but what is working "properly"? I've used IE6 (it was my standard browser for a long time) and it seemed to work just fine. Or are you saying...

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Comment from Reg Braithwaite

"I had a product that had 90%+ market share and was something I was giving away for free, I doubt I'd be spending my money to fix it..." I agree. However, one question is: how did IE end up with 90%...

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Comment from Emil

Good thoughts, but I can't agree with you at the IE point. It should have been okay if it was an external application but it isn't. It's a scary integration in my OS. I could use linux though, my point...

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Comment from rich

Is it free though? It's an integral part of the Windows OS. As far as I know it's impossible / extremely hard to remove. So isn't it covered by the Windows license cost? And as such shouldn't it work...

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